Created 04/19 08:21 PM
Hi, new subject. Are you pro-life or pro-choice? I am going to guess that you are pro-life, now I would like you to defend this choice.
To use a contraceptive such as a condom or birth control pills inevitably means that the thousands of sperm cells(life) will die on their own after a few days. Is that not murder? Sure the sperm have no real sentience, but they do live. A baby being formed that is a few weeks old is not sentient either. To kill it is on the same level as killing a germ or breathing. Killing is a fact of life and is impossible not to do. You say that it is different because the baby could have turned into a human, but then could not those sperm have turned into a human as well, as could that egg that each girl produces every month that dies on its own. These things die and no one reserves a thought about it. This is not all that logical. Who cares if that baby that is forming dies, in the case of anyone who would consider an abortion, it is a good chance that baby will not have that great of a life anyway, if the parents or parent is not ready then both parent and child will suffer the consequences.
If the baby is a full 7 months gestated, then you are stuck with it. Learn refsponsibility, but if caught early I don't see the big deal. This could be a moral thing, but I have a hard time grasping some of that so I am given to misunderstanding.
Tom Dierkes04/13/2000 6:46 PM
<I am going to guess that you are pro-life>
You are SUCH a good guesser!
To make any progress, we should probably deal with Abortion as a number of smaller issues. I'll lay them all out here, and then we might tackle them, one at a time. I've attempted to lay them out in an order which should build upon each other. Try not to mix the issues and I think we can search out most of the truth.
(i.e. When considering point #3, consider #1 & #2, and don't consider those we haven't covered yet.)
#1) At what point does the unborn child become a child?
What are the requirements which make us human?
12/11/99, you said <Is it the large frontal lobe that makes us un-killable by commandment.> Yes, it was in another conversation, but, it does suggest intelligence might be your measuring stick. You said other things too during this and other conversations which lead me to conclude intelligence is 'THE THING' for you.
From what I have read from you, I would suspect a sign of intelligence marks a child. On
Consider then, it is in the second month with 'Brain Waves' are first detectable. Also, in the second month, the body is completely formed. Maybe you require more 'intelligence' than this? (I don't.) Maybe you consider this a vegetable state?
Well, okay, let us consider months five and six. The glands are functioning, the baby can hear and recognizes Mom's voice. But, most of all for your sake, the baby has an active emotional life and can LEARN things! Hey, considering <A baby being formed that is a few weeks old is not sentient either.>, does this meet your qualifications now? Is the baby sentient?
Well, when you suggest <Sure the sperm have no real sentience, but they do live.>, you suggested intelligence may not be your guiding light. Or, maybe intelligence is still your overriding criteria for humans, but not for life. I'm not sure.
I believe there is no time lapse between when the baby is human and when the baby is just a clump of cells. The baby is alive and is human at the same moment.
#2) When does life begin?
Is there a distinction between life beginning and the baby?
Sometimes, you reason like a logical puritist. As such, I would expect you might agree with me on this. When the father's sperm and the mother's ovum unite, a genetically unique one-celled individual is created. This one cell contains all the genetic coding - some 46 chromosomes and 30,000 genes - which determines the new individual's sex, hair, eye color, face, facial features, and some personality and intelligence features.
Thus, baby is 'alive' from the moment of conception because this is when a genetically unique one-celled individual is created.
You know, within the first two weeks, the unborn child moves down the Fallopian tube and enters the uterus where the unborn child begins to develop their own life suppose system. Isn't that COOL? Their own life support system! Although the unborn child receives nourishment from Mom, the unborn child is genetically unique and biologically separate individual from the time of conception.
I believe life begins at the moment of conception and is a new, human child.
#3) Is the unborn child in the womb, a child, an infestation, or just a glandular growth?
It seems in any environment outside of the politically charged 'abortion' issue, Embryologist agree that a new life is created when sperm and egg unite at the moment of fertilization. Development from that point on is a matter of maturation only. Put another way, the cow has a baby cow inside her, a whale has a baby whale inside her, but the human has an infestation (if Mom does not want the child) inside her.
This is why I suggested we attempt to consider these points one at a time. Trying, as best we can, to isolate the future consequence of these decisions. Below is a quote pertaining to our old subject, evolution. The point is made here to illustrate when you have a conclusion which you cannot be parted from, your reasoning powers, and, in fact, your integrity, can escape you.
"If man or even his ape ancestor or even the ape's early mammal ancestor existed as far back as the Carboniferous period in any shape, then the whole science of geology is so completely wrong that all geologist will be resigned their jobs and take up driving trucks. Hence, for the present at least, science REJECTS the attractive explanation that man made these mysterious prints in the mud of the Carboniferous period with his feet."
Dr. Engils 1940 Scientific American, "The Carboniferous Mystery", page 14
So, we've already established, I believe, that the baby is a child at the point of conception. At this point, the baby is genetically complete. The baby moves down Mom's Fallopian tube and enters the uterus and develops their own life support system. This makes the baby quite distinct from Mom.
I also hope I have moved you from believing this might be a child if the child has reached a <full 7 months>. Perhaps moved forward a little bit. I am not sure if you originally believed at a <full 7 months> something dramatic happened where the glandular growth suddenly became human or what your thinking was there.
I reviewed the methods of abortion, and, you know, when they attempt to 'kill' the baby, if the salt, toxins, or hormones accidentally stray from the baby which is being killed to the Mom, then Mom's health can be in serious jeopardy. The word 'IF' seems strange to me because 'IF' baby were a growth of cells, infestation, or glandular growth, then OF COURSE the salt, toxins, or hormones would spread throughout Mom's body. But, of course, most often the 'killing' materials stay restricted to the baby's life support system and do NOT infect the Mom.
I believe life begins at the moment of conception and is a new, human child which lives for the time being inside their Mom. Loving Mom, the child should hope.See ... Abortion body parts (warning: some graphic material).
#4) Is birth control (generally speaking) morally
(How can we come to terms with how we define this?) correct.
Now, let's sneak up on some more controversial areas...
<To use a contraceptive such as a condom or birth control pills inevitably means that the thousands of sperm cells (life) will die on their own after a few days. Is that not murder?>
You have suggested contraceptives might be akin to murder, even though sperm cells do not fill your sentient qualification.
There are two angles to look at contraception.
1: The first asks if contraception is murdering life?
For me, since I concluded the child and life both began at conception, then I'm not sure what you are killing here. Your cells are born and die all the time. This question seems strange from one who suggests a woman is <stuck with it> at seven months. If this is your only criteria for analyzing this question, then, your conclusion is going to be quite obvious and I could not fault your reasoning either. There is a second part to consider.
Birth control is meant to prevent new life. Abortion is meant to destroy life. These are NOT the same thing.
2: The second asks if contraception has an effect on humans besides the obvious?
The question of contraception goes with a life style which I believe is destructive and harmful. Using contraception are destructive not just for the couple, but for all society. I say this not from a Right/wrong, religious stand point, but from an emotional state of health.
Contraception goes hand in hand with a promiscuous life style which destroys relationships and marriages. Destroyed and damaged relationships and marriages create dysfunctional families and disintegrate societies.
Is drinking alcohol bad? Probably not. Is getting drunk bad? Probably so. It can certainly get to a point to where it is a major problem. What if you only drink yourself silly while sitting in the bathtub? A sort of alcohol contraceptive? Does the bathtub make everything alright?
The problem with contraceptives isn't the problem. It's a band aid to allow poor judgement and immaturity to rule. To allow sexual relationships without physic bonding between irresponsible parties.
Contraceptives are not morally correct.
#5) Are there consequences to abortion?
Certainly there are. I can name three right off.
1: Mom's die from this.
You often hear people claim if we didn't have abortion, then people would just have them done in the back alleys. These conditions are unsafe. Sound familiar? (Wonder when we are going to legalize murder because people are going to do so anyway - oh, already have. :)
In the decade before abortion was legal, there was an average of 225 abortion related deaths annually. Today, it is true, few die at the abortion clinics. Instead, they go home, and some find themselves in the hospital shortly after this, hemorrhaging. Some of these Moms do die. Generally speaking, because the abortion was on Monday on the east side of town, and the 'would be' Moms died in a hospital on the west side of town a few days later, the death is rarely considered to be because of the abortion. Quite literally, she bled to death.
Sure, processes are safer for Mom now then they used to be. However, today, millions of Mom's are having their children sucked out of their body all the time. So, in terms of numbers rather than a percentage (which I don't know of, and doubt it would be helpful to me), more 'would be' Moms die.
2: Post Abortion Syndrome
To understand why the Post Abortion Syndrome was not generally recognized for many years, one must understand a couple things.
The effect of Post Abortion Syndrome sometimes takes years to show. On average, it occurs some 5 - 9 years later. For example, years later, the Mom allows one of her children to live. Then, Mom starts to see things differently. Often, there is a process of denial to block the natural grieving. Quite often, there are conflicting emotions at war within Mom.
Planned Parenthood, in 1992, conceded that 91% of aborted women may experience trauma after abortion. Duh! Some suffer depression, nightmares, suicidal thoughts, some wake in the night thinking a baby is crying.
One man asked after watching his 'woman' disintegrate, "What kind of trade off is control of your body for control of your mind?"
Sometimes the surviving children often become 'replacement children' which were lost through abortion. Mom's have been know to just go WAY overboard in catering to these children.
7% of men in march 1989 (Los Angelos), acknowledge having been the father of an aborted child. Guilt was felt by almost 2/3 and regret by more than a third. Odd thing, but you know those abortions done because the baby might strain Mom's relationship with Dad? Few of these relationships lasted anyway.
I wonder, why regret or grief over 'something' which never lived?
3: This is also destructive to relationships and society.
Why can children get an abortion without their parents knowledge and yet children cannot have the simplest medical treatments - save abortion and sexually transmitted diseases, without parental consent?
Abortion doesn't promote maturity of any sort. Instead, it promotes immaturity and irresponsibility.
You see, a sexual relationship is meant for a married couple. Marriage is meant for mature individuals who have determined they will live together for the rest of their lives as a family.
Children who play around with sex before they have reached this level of maturity in their lives are going to face serious consequences for their misbehavior. Not only the children, but many other members and potential members of their family. Abortion attempts to remove the consequences for the misbehavior by killing the witness. This promote irresponsibility.
When any person is secretive and withholds information from their family who should normally be there for them, the relationship suffers.
On the other hand, when children are aware of Mom killing their brother and/or sister, the children may not only perceive this as a dangerous world, but see some of the danger coming from Mom! Scary to think that way, isn't it?
Is it any wonder we have so many dysfunctional families?
What happens if we take this forward to it's natural conclusion? Let us see.
Sooner or later, they will come for YOU!
When I am 60 years old, I probably won't remember your name. If you put me into some retirement home, I'll cost you lost of money. Wouldn't it be just a nifty idea to just put me away? After all, by then I'll be so dense I probably won't even know I am dead!
So, my answer is, abortion cheapens life. Life becomes just a commodity.
#6) Is it 'Preferred' (We can't seem to speak in terms of Right/Wrong) we NOT kill a child?
When a single child dies, the world mourns. But when 26 million children die, the world pretends it did not happen.
I wonder how come?
The first question, I suppose, is, is abortion killing (a baby) or healing (infestation removal)? This answer should already be self evident if we have already concluded when the baby becomes human and when the human baby found itself inside Mom, if ever (questions 1 - 4).
For me, abortion is killing the baby. We'll move forward with this premise.
There seems to me to be some mystery as to where you stand on killing. Below are some quotes you made on killing back in December. You have made many others which suggest you do not like killing of any sort for any reason.
And, here, you seem to have indicated you have such a caring heart. I can see you just must for people so.
This being the case, let's consider we have a baby inside of Mom who is quite sensitive to touch at the ripe old age of 3 months. All the organs are in place, and the nervous system is operating.
You suggested abortions were just fine not at conceptions, not at a few weeks, or three months, but at seven months. What is so unique about seven months? Well, the baby starts to add fat, anti-bodies, and the baby can cry tears. The baby probably cries because the baby has just found out they have finally reached a point where the parents <are stuck with it>.
Well, if you are going to do murder, you best pick your weapon. You tell ME which one you, with all your pity and consideration for ALL forms of life everywhere, consider the best approach! (Yes, this is starting to make me angry!)
Methods of Abortion
Suction of Abortion (Vacuum Aspiration)
Most common method in use today. A suction tube is inserted through the dilated cervix into the worm. The vacuum tears the placenta from the uterus and dismembers the body. The danger to Mom is the womb can also be punctured and also if any pieces of junior are left behind.
Dilation and Curettage (D&C)
The Doctor uses a long steel knife into the womb through the dilated cervix and scrapes the wall of the uterus, cutting the baby into pieces. Mom bleeds quite a bit from this procedure and runs the same risks if any of junior is left behind.
Details of an 11 week abortion (warning: some graphic material).
Dilation and Evacuation (D&E)
Instead of a long steel knife, forceps are used. This technique requires more skill with the wrist action to rip the baby to shreds so the pieces may be pulled out. Mom does a lot of bleeding. I understand most Doctors and nurses don't have the stomach for this procedure in the later months of development. Amazing. These butchers feel something?
Salt Poisoning (Saline Injection)
|"Salting out" is done with a long needle through Mom's abdomen resulting in an injection of saline solution into the sac of amnionic fluid surrounding the baby. The baby is poisoned by swallowing (how does a clump of cells swallow?) the salt and the skin is completely burned away. Mom goes into labor and has a 'hopefully' dead baby. Biggest problem would be for the children being born 'alive' - burned raw, in pain, and 'alive'. Also, Mom's health is going to be in trouble if any of the salt gets into her bloodstream. (Why wouldn't it, since the growth of cells are suppose to be part of Mom and not an independent life form?)|
Surgical procedure where the baby is removed from Mom and then allowed to die due to neglect. This is most often done when the stupid baby failed to DIE from the 'Salting out'. How inconvenient! This is also the highest risk for Mom (Operation, not the neglect, although, considering Post Abortion Syndrome, maybe that too.).
By use of a chemical hormone, violent labor is induced resulting in a premature birth. Since live births are to be avoided, salt or other toxins are injected into the sac first. Mom can have cardiac arrest if any of this hormone reaches her (Again, I wonder why the hormones would not ALWAYS reach Mom, since the cancerous cells are part of HER BODY!)
This was really rough, wasn't it? Like reading a horror movie. And to think, there are people who make a living in these ways. Must make them proud to go home and be with their family!
So, point one -- is it 'Preferred' we NOT kill a child, the answer is YES, is 'PREFERRED' we NOT kill a child. Life is precious and this is inhumane!
I am not even going to bother quoting from the Bible to you why life is precious. I believe you also agree life is precious, for your own reasons. We have just looked at the situation logically, and determined the child is alive at conception, and it is gruesome work to exterminate the child.
I'd like to mention something about fairness or the justice of killing a child for the convenience of the mother. This sort of argument can't really go very far with us because 'fair' depends on what you 'prefer' for today. Since my standard is of absolutes (what God says) and you use a standard based on how you feel about it today, how can come to any agreement on this?
You know, when children are killed because they are just not 'wanted', we establish a precedent for other battles. We'll get into these in the next point.
#7) Are there special conditions for when abortion is more 'Preferred' or less 'Preferred'?
First off, let's get the most common way this question is asked, answered.
Should abortion be allowed to save the Mom's life.
I think you better ask the Mom and DAD. How often do you think this comes up? Less than 1%, for sure, but how MUCH less than 1%?
Should abortion be allowed in the case of rape or incest?
Let's say I did something stupid down here and I was sued for
everything I had. Everything. As a consequence, we lost our
house, and, low and behold, you lost yours TOO! (I could not
longer pay child support)
Is it fair/right/preferred for YOU, much less your Mom, all be
put out just because of something I did?
Do not make the mistake of confusing unplanned vs unwanted. This
is not the case. At least not the case for a stable, mature woman.
(This may be the case for immature girls who have been playing
with sex when they should not, but this is part of our society
If the child is anything, the child is a victim.
And, this takes care of 2% of the case load.
Now, let's move on to the 98% of the abortions being done. Some say no mother should be force to carry a child she does not want.
I reject the premise put forth here that an unplanned pregnancy equals and unwanted child. This is not so. Mothers can accept their children. EVEN if the Mom is an immature child herself. Dads too, if the studies on nurturing 'you mentioned', are true.
Sex is not for play between children. Sex is for married couples in a mature relationship. Mature married couples rarely opt for abortion.
Is is OK to murder children because they are not perfect?
No. Life is precious. Children can be loved no matter what deformities they have.
Is is OK to murder children as a form of sex selection?
Oh for Pete's sake. Give me a break. How selfish and how unfeeling can someone be?
Are abortions a preferred way of handling out of marriage pregnancies by school girls?
There are more and more school clinics which claim they are having an impact. Well, they may be achieving fewer births but this is because they facilitate more abortions.
You know, just considering the parental consent factor, we find when the child-woman know they must have parental consent, there is less promiscuity. When parental consent is effectively removed, and with the great counseling from the abortion industry, the abortions, and need for abortions goes right on up. Hmmmm. Wonder how come?
The answer is, if Mom's life is in danger, the Mom and Dad will decide this. There are no other exceptions.
#8) Why is it important for people to have abortions?
So, why do we have so many abortions? Generally speaking, most abortions are for the following reasons.
This dad, by the way, may be inside or outside of marriage. In either case, the treasured relationship often does not lasts after Mom's abortion. (This is not AFTER, as in weeks or months, but a much longer time span.)
Being a Mom for the first time is scary. This is true if you are single or married. It's even scary to be a Dad when their kids are 16.
Look at the reasons given up there. Hmmm... You could almost break them out into a couple characteristics, can't you. Let's see; Insecurity, Selfishness, Irresponsibility.
Something to think about. If women are an oppressed group, they are the only group to require surgery in order to be equal.
#9) If someone truly believes a child is alive inside a woman, is he less responsible for allowing a murder to happen than if he watched someone run over a child in the street?
Do we determine what is alive / not alive just by our national laws? Is this our source of morality? And if we change the laws, our sense of right and wrong goes along with it?
Consider the case of Dred Scott, a black slave, whom, on March 6, 1857, was upheld by the Supreme Court to be property of his owner. This IT had no more rights than the owner's horse or oxen. Can't you just hear this?
"I am personally opposed to slavery, but cannot impose my views on others."
I find this question one of the harder questions. There are several questions which come up for me which I consider harder than others because if I agree, then I am almost compelled into action. As much as I am reluctant to take the action, I am reluctant to field an answer.
Earlier, if you held abortion to be perfectly fine and humane and found yourself agreeing the baby was alive at conception, you might have struggled to actually say YES, because such an answer would have compromised your other beliefs.
Murders have been convicted of double murders for killing a woman who was carrying a baby. This has happened a number of times. There was a case on 60 minutes just a year or so back. Abortionist oppose this sort of conviction even though is seemingly has nothing to do with abortion because if effects how the law defines when life begins.
My answer is, no, the man is NOT less responsible. I am quite unsure how the man, or I, can most effectively save the most children. I prefer to vote in all the pro-life people I can and to vote OUT all the pro-abortion people I can.
#10) Why is abortion such a dividing issue?
First off, this is not a Religious issue. There are many people who object to abortion on scientific or moral grounds. I am not sure how they reached their conclusions, but, they get there just the same. (I suppose by way of comparison, we might note how we agree on how to treat a lady, although you reached your conclusions by skirting religion.)
Look closely at the arguments for abortion and see how they force us to decide what it means to be human.
Let's see. Oh, let us support the Special Olympics. Oh, did you hear this rags to riches story. Wasn't it wonderful? Yes, yes, kill the baby. The family is too poor and the child will always be unhappy.
Disgusting, and most certainly inconsistent!
#11) Do pro-abortion people attempt to enforce their beliefs on everyone else or is it only the right wing Christian conspiracy?
Why does it seem there are people who are hell bent on pushing the national concept of morality ever lower? Don't these people and movements seem to be pushing their own agenda on everyone else?
I read an editorial from a Carrie Helmick who was very hostile to a Pro-Family add which had been taken out in the paper. She was very upset at these people having an opinion. Well, she was going to find out every business sponsor and not support them anymore. She urged everyone to assert their rights by shutting down all these businesses. The add was just a warm appeal for some family values and her letter was VERY HOSTILE, but the words in her letter suggested the add was HOSTILE to all sensible people and she was being attacked viciously.
Isn't it interesting that if you are pro-family or pro-life, then your opinion is hostile to so many people. If you are pro-abortion, then you are only responding to an unmerciful attack. It seems to me just about everything you read or see in our media paints pro-life as taking rights away from someone and pro-abortion as a natural right everyone has always had. You can tell the slant of the news by the descriptions of the opposing sides. Pro-abortion or pro-choice. Pro-life or anti-abortion.
First off, before the 1973 ruling, abortion wasn't a right. Abortion has never been in the constitution, and it isn't there now.
Second, the constitution doesn't give the courts the power to create rights, but they have on several occasions. Keep this in mind when you put together your world view. Some people will not play by your rules, even if they are written down plainly before them and have procedures in place to make sure they are obeyed.
You can guess why people like myself believe abortion is so wrong. We believe the child is alive at conception, and we are opposed to such careless murder of children because they are inconvenient.
I can understand why many with a vested interest are for abortion. When a child-woman goes to an abortion clinic, she receives some counseling. This, by someone who has an economic and ideological stake in abortion. They are told the child is just some cells which they will remove. No big deal.
I can sort of understand why many proud people are for abortion. These people won't have ANYONE tell them what they can or cannot do. You know the type well. They are full of pride and the world revolves around them. Compared to them, the child is of no consequence (or so they think, as the child-woman will mature someday).
Susan B. Anthony called abortion "child murder" and called for prevention, not just punishment. The nineteenth century feminists were unanimous in opposing abortion. Elizabeth Cady Stanton said if it was degrading to treat women as property, it was no better for women to treat their own children as property.
When feminism re-emerged, they were mostly concerned with career and pubic life opportunities. Later, the feminist movement jumped on the sexual freedom train. Now, what is the conflict here? Public life and children = hampered Public Life. No, no. Feminist no want children. Sexual freedom and children = more children. No, no. Feminist no want children.
So, from this, we see why our politically correct society has been moving in this direction.
You know, now that I think of this, perhaps I was asking the wrong question. It's not why abortion, but why do certain groups keep pushing sexual freedom. Public life for the feminist would not be hampered if they weren't on the sexual freedom train. We, as a society, are hemorrhaging from this illness, and sexual freedoms keep being PUSHED! Why is it important to some people that YOU be as promiscuous as possible? All these people aren't planning to have sex with YOU, so, why is it so important to them that you join them in the gutter?
But, as long as society is going to keep pushing down this road of more and more sexual freedoms for the children at lower and lower ages, we'll continue to have divorces, abortions, dysfunctional families, and many of the other social ails which are festering.
Sometimes it is enough to make one physically sick.
\|||/ (o o) I love you --ooO-Ooo----------------- Dad
#1. I was talking in terms of organic life. A cell is a living entity. From cells you move on to organs, organ systems, and then into animal type things like us. However, these cells are not that important. A human child has the potential to understand things. The same is true with an animal such as a dog, it has great potential, it should live. However, potential can be wasted, it will have to be stimulated properly and molded to become anything worthwhile, unless you count the randomness factor that could create something completely unexpected. What I was trying to say was that the growing baby is important because it has potential, but the same is true of sperm and eggs, they are biological and they have potential.
#2. Human life begins before this meeting you speak of. Because the egg and the sperm both have the potential to do this thing. Life starts as an idea, and sense death is inevitable it barely matters when it happens. Thinking of my own death the worst thing that I can conjure is disappointment, because I didn't accomplish very much and many people will be sad. That's about it.
#3. I did not mean that at 7 months the child is un-killable for moral reasons. I meant that if that much time has passed the parents have grown attached in someway whether they want to or not. If they kill it then they will forever wonder what could have been and possibly hate themselves. Thus if one gets an abortion it should be very early.
#4 I can agree with your psychological assessment of contraceptives but I cannot agree at all with the alcohol metaphor. Alcohol is a toxin, you kill yourself by ingesting it. By getting drunk, you are proving to me that you are a moron. If you stay in a bathtub you may have saved everyone else from suffering your presence, but you have devastated your system. You have committed murder on the cellular level in such an amount that massacre is a massive understatement.
#5 Of course abortion is bad, but it should still be a choice. As I said before, there are three classes of living, the people who chose alcohol or abortion will congregate to the higher or lower class, leaving the prime middle classes by themselves. The option of weakness when not chosen strengthens the stock. Those who belong in this middle class would probably not have an unplanned pregnancy anyway. Abortion helps to degenerate the higher and lower classes, and remove them from the possibility of adding flaws to the middle class. Did you know that all evidence points towards alcoholism being hereditary?
#6. My view on life, to clarify, is a lot easier than you may think. There are a lot of people out there, some more important than others, kill a few and the race remains as a whole. Killing an individual is a horrible thing, but it should be considered that in the grand scheme it isn't that important. I am unsure of how to say it without sounding colder than I truly am. I could never actually kill anyone, but if I did I would not waste very much time feeling guilty for the unalterable. I have noticed that you feel no remorse for the death of anything that isn't human. You think nothing of eating beef, but does not the cow feel pain, do you think it is morally right to raise cows to adulthood, lead them into a building, kill them horribly, tear them apart and ship off their body parts to ship to people around the world. You step on a spider because it invaded your territory. The spider is a feeling creature, it can learn, and has very limited reasoning ability. You step on it and wipe its insides out onto the ground.
Quite gruesome when described abortion like that. As I said it is an outlet for the weak, I would never chose it(even though I cannot possibly know this without it really happening). I am tired of egotistical humans thinking they are the only creatures of importance. Kill a human they all grieve, kill something else they shrug. Your descriptions are enough to make most women cry. But there is one thing you are missing. A quick kill early is better than years of emotional killing by parents who do not care, isn't it? Teenage mothers have very little chance of gaining any advantages in life. They are thought badly of by everyone in their school despite most of these people having already done the same thing just never suffered the consequences. Their lives are pretty much over, they can't do nearly anything because their life revolves around this kid. They don't have much of a chance of making it through college. They will be unhappy for a long time and they will reflect this in their victim of a child. Thus they are forced out of my middle class. :-(
You make good arguments, my basic problem with abortion has always laid with the religious zealots that course far more harm than good. It would appear that you see this as well. Sure I am mostly pro-life, but overall, the choice must rest with the parent. I am pro-choice. Sorry.
Must go do my homework. Bye.
Tom Dierkes04/14/2000 10:26 PM
<human child has the potential>
<sperm and eggs, they are biological and they have potential>
This is a little alarming. What if the child is retarded. What if you know in advance the child is retarded or will perhaps NEVER live anything close to a normal life? Would you call this mercy killing, and whom would you figure is receiving the mercy?
- Carolyn Hines is about 15 now, and she is going to attend my 1st grade Sunday School class. She has been in our Junior Church for a very long time. I know she enjoys Veggie Tales. I also know she likes Wendy, her parents, and myself.
- Crystal Bell is a teenager now too. We've worked with her for some eight years. She speaks better than Carolyn, but not that you can tell what she says either. However, she does have a spastic form of sign language.
- There was a girl who Beth worked with who had no muscle control and had to be strapped into her chair and fed. She was about 6 when she left here for Colorado. She was getting mighty big to carry around and for changing diapers.
- Last spring, a lady's unborn baby was diagnosed as short three chromosomes (mutation, to you). Sometimes such a baby can last up to a year before they die. They loved this baby even before the baby was born. When the baby WAS born, she was still, and there were about 70 people at the funeral.
You would kill all these children? What do you know of potential? The little girl who died of touched more peoples lives than you or I might, and she never even breathed. You and I do not read the book of life, much less read it. These children can all be loved and to various degrees, they have an ability to love.
This is sad to think 15 years from now I'll have no more potential. Since I won't remember anybody, not even to love or acknowledge love. Flush! You'll send me right out of here. Hmmm?
<Life starts as an idea>
You are so right here. Forgot briefly the depth of your understanding sometimes. You have your moments."I knew you before I formed you in your mother's womb."
What is this IT business? The child is not an IT. You suggested in #2 that life might actually have started before conception. Try combining points #2 and #3. With mature, married persons, there is an attachment to the unborn child even before the sex act, much less conception.
<cannot agree at all with the alcohol metaphor>
I wasn't too pleased with it either. It seemed a hard fit, but I couldn't think of a better one at the time. But, after having read your assessment of it, I like it better.
<Alcohol is a toxin, you kill yourself by ingesting it.>
Sex can be an addiction. You can kill yourself with irresponsible sex outside of marriage.
<By getting drunk, you are proving to me that you are a moron.>
By giving in to your basic animal cravings, you prove you have no self control and no respect for yourself or your future mate. Why would you spoil the bed of your true, life long love, with all those who have gone before?
<If you stay in a bathtub you may have saved everyone else from suffering your presence, but you have devastated your system.>
By using contraceptives, you have mistakenly said to yourself, "If I do this, then everything will be alright.". The bathtub does NOT make everything alright, and contraceptives do not change anything either. But, in the latter case, many pretend that it does.
<You have committed murder on the cellular level in such an amount that massacre is a massive understatement.>
Not only are there many people in prison who suffer with sexual addiction, but there are people who are on the streets and there are quite proper people you might not even guess who struggle with sexual addition problems. In fact, there was one person in the papers almost every day who was captive to his addiction and lost all self control and self respect.
In some respects, the sexual revolution is about some people who have no self control and who are burdened with guilt. Now, if everyone can wallow in the gutter with them, somehow, this makes them feel better. But, the are not really better. Just feeling so (less guilt).
When it comes to sexual additions, sonney boy, I am NOT talking theory or hazarding guesses. This is as dangerous a quagmire as any you will ever come across.
<three classes of living>....<strengthens the stock>
The idea between these two ideas are dull people sink to the bottom and stay there and bright people rise to the top. This is a fine sounding sometimes. Just because I don't buy your argument here doesn't mean I don't appreciate it. Keep postulating here and you might have something. Don't give up on your philosophizing.
- By the way, are short people at the bottom class or upper class?
- Is hair loss something all men can look forward to in 100 years as we become a super race?
- Where to bad eyes and ears go? They go away or is superman going to be wearing a hearing aid?
- How many generations did it take to reach a point where a guy in his 40s can't seem to remember anything important anymore? Sure hope mankind evolves SOON!
<abortion is bad, but it should still be a choice>
So which of my points did you reject? That baby and life begin at conception? That baby lives separately from Mom? Did you reject these because abortion HAD to remain a choice?
<Did you know that all evidence points towards alcoholism being hereditary?>
Some, not all. There are different kinds of alcoholism, if you want to use the word - kinds. Believe there would be better, clinical word, but I don't know it. Only one or two 'kinds' have a more likely 'tendency'.
Alcoholism is often a form of escape (from pain), or escape (from loneliness).
<Killing an individual is a horrible thing, but it should be considered that in the grand scheme it isn't that important>
Somehow, these points seem to keep reinforcing the same theme, over and over. You have no respect for human life. I would NEVER have thought evolution to have been such an important stumbling block, but I see now it most certainly has been. Since evolution preaches man evolved from lesser (or other beings), then you cannot accept man as having any worth greater than these other beings.
God made us. He made us in His likeness, which means He has shared many of His characteristics with us. God loves us. This gives us worth. This sets us apart.
When your peers praise you, applaud you, and stand in awe of your immense intellect (understanding of obscure subjects), you sometimes feel pride, maybe puffed up. You attempt to control yourself and not let this go to your head and to seem indifferent. But, this does happen. Your peers are helping you to think of yourself as someone of value. Someone of worth.
A girl who is shunned by everyone, seems to have no friends, and won't even talk to God about it, is lonely and feels isolated. Suicidal thoughts appear from time to time. She also gathers her value from her peers and, in this case, there is none.
But God knew you and loved you before you were born. Your Mom and I loved you before you were born. We dreamed about our little boy in the first year of our marriage, which was years before even Shelly was born! You had value before you ever soiled your first diaper. You will continue to have value even if you are run over by a truck and are paralyzed and become a vegetable this week. You are MORE than just a clump of cells, some brain waves, and your wit.
<I am unsure of how to say it without sounding colder than I truly am.>
Sometimes, I have also been cold. You are not the first to feel this way sometimes, and you won't be the last. Someday, your son will feel this way. Will you recognize it and, well, what would you do? Advise? Watch? Most assuredly, your son will NOT be as OPEN as you have. There isn't 1 in 100 kids who talk to their Dad like you have been when they are 16. This is such a rare privilege, sometimes I just have to cry.
<A quick kill early is better than years of emotional killing by parents who do not care, isn't it?>
Who died and made you god so you could determine this? There are many social problems, most assuredly. These problems aren't getting better when women eat their young, men do not accept their responsibilities, and children play adult games with no consequences. Killing the young only add to the problems. You would best spend your time working on the solutions.
When you are older, why don't you consider being a 'big brother'? You may be able to understand a little of where the are at and be helpful. In this way, you can erase some of the emotional killing. And, at the same time, you will find this acts as a medicine to your spirit.
<Their lives are pretty much over, they can't do nearly anything because their life revolves around this kid. They don't have much of a chance of making it through college. They will be unhappy for a long time and they will reflect this in their victim of a child.>
I'm considering sharing with you some experiences I've had with this. I suppose you're Mom has already shared more than one example. I have read and heard some accounts from parents who are very pleased they did not lose their child to adoption or abortion. And, I have read and heard accounts of adult children who were very happy their parents did not abort them (having been either put up for adoption or having learned their was a touch decision made).
I live a sheltered life. You are right about that. I don't often run into people with family problems which are visible. Sometimes. I just looked up the correspondence I had with someone in such a tight spot. It makes my heart so sad to have read it again. Sad and scared - for my own children.
I will share it with you, later. Ask for the Dalton letter - later. This is too soon. One pleasant outcome is we got a card and picture in the mail a little while ago with the wee one lying on the blanket Beth made for the baby. The first time we've seen the baby, and we have never seen the baby's mother. I have met the baby's grandma, however.
How many lives have been touched by this one baby born to difficult circumstances? How many relationships were strained, and are better than ever now? You just can't know how these things are going to work out.
<my basic problem with abortion has always laid with the religious zealots that course far more harm than good>
Why call them zealots? Same reason I call pro-abortion people - pro-abortion? To put the meaning behind the description?
You should always have the utmost respect for ANYONE who acts upon their beliefs. ANYONE. Respect does not mean agree, for I most certainly do NOT agree with many feminist, atheists, philosophers, nature lovers, animal lovers, etc. But, I do respect those who act upon their beliefs.
Kassie went to her prom a couple weekends ago. On this very special night, her group of four left early because the music was in poor taste. I was so proud. First, because they recognized an unwholesome situation. Second, because they took a stand. They did not make a fuss, but just left their peers behind. I am sure there were some who recognized the situation, but found they could not act on their convictions.
Someday, your pride is going to take a terrible beating. When that day comes, you will turn to the Lord and pray. The Lord will be there for you. He loves you very much. The Lord demonstrates his love for me every day with his blessings. I talk to the Lord about you every morning and night. I believe He has some plans for you. The Lord has most CERTAINLY been doing a work TO me THROUGH you.
<It would appear that you see this as well.>
I see there is a struggle for the mind. A struggle for ideas. I also see this as very frustrating.
<I am pro-choice.>
And I am suppose to be surprised? I was suppose to think I could write one letter and undo 16 years?
I am just extremely thankful for the opportunity to share.
\|||/ (o o) I love you --ooO-Ooo----------------- Dad
Retarded people still have the potential to do something. They can't do much, but they can do a few things just as well as anyone else, and with enough training can do it better than anyone else, I don't know what these things are but I am sure they are out there.
I have nothing against the people you mentioned. Find their strengths and what they like, find a match and strengthening their ability there. At the same time give them a broad base of knowledge to grow on. However, lacking muscle control is very interesting to me, as is any form of paralysis, if it isn't the type of thing that physical therapy can fix then possibly the nerves can be reworked somehow, but this is difficult because nerve and brain cells do not reproduce like the others do.
You are becoming obsessive about your becoming an invalid at 60, no one is truly useless to me, I can find a use for you. But not at a home somewhere all you do there is waste away with idle activity. Sure a few girl scouts will come sing to you every once and a while, but what a dreadful place. Don't worry, you won't have to go there, I will set you up in a nice sweat shop, with a nice social environment and many breaks.
The future genetic stock should be about 6 foot, any taller and they will have horrible posture, they will be able to consciously control hair growth if they ever start listening to me. They will have excellent hearing and sight, but this is thousands of years off, we will have something happen to us a long time before that, that will alter us significantly enough to sent us on a different track. It will either be some form of ozone depletion to allow UV rays to play with our cells, or possibly some nuclear accident or any number of other things.
I do indeed disagree that a baby's life starts at conception, I think it starts as an idea, if the child is different from the way the idea pictured him, alter the idea, don't force him into it.
But the only thing that keeps me pro-choice and not pro-life is that there should be a choice in everything, even if the choosers do not have the full allotment of facts. Mistakes help people grow.
Tom Dierkes04/15/2000 11:47 PM
<You are becoming obsessive about your becoming an invalid at 60>
I can feel myself losing it.
<I will set you up in a nice sweat shop, with a nice social environment>
That is kind of you. It is my impression that people who don't believe children are expendable eventually believe old folks are a drag as well, and thus expendable.
inconvenient = expendable
But, if you think I can be useful in your sweat shop, fine, I'll be glad to help Larry, er, Sam, er, boy!
<future genetic stock should be about 6 foot>
Thousands of years of evolution and I'm 6 inches behind the curve. :(
<keeps me pro-choice and not pro-life is that there should be a choice in everything>
Should YOU pay for someone's abortion? Aren't the two issues separate? But, not in this implementation.
\|||/ (o o) I love you --ooO-Ooo----------------- Dad